Will I regret buying a liter bike to race?

[backinthesaddle]

Based on some TTD pics of you guys wheelying I say go for it. Look like a blast. IÂ’d be needing an ambulance.

[maxim_X]

I got an R1 after racing primarily lightweght and supermoto. At NHMS it was a handful, but at other tracks I was comfortable quickly and really enjoyer the stability and power. Honestly I've only ridden it 4 times, so my impressions aren't that solid. It would get ridden more if my focus didn't shift to 'real' supermoto instead of road racing. If you want one go for it, have fun.

[sdog30]

Was it the r1m being sold here?

[sdog30]

Oh, and I was wrong. I thought the 15 was the V model like 09+. I didn't realize it was the newer style.

Those bikes are very competitive. Almost cheater bikes with the amount of electronics.

[tucktuvak]

Was it the r1m being sold here?

No I actually got one in California, guy had upgraded to a 2020. So excited to get out there on the track with it and see what it’s like! Hard to judge how a bike will ride just going up and down the street.

After the electronics on my 790 I’m not sure I can go back to no rider aids, other than on dirt and supermoto.

[tucktuvak]

Little rough around the edges but should rip!

[tucktuvak]

Track Day Update/Review:

TL/DR: Riding a fast bike fast is very fun!

Did my first trackdays on the R1 this Saturday and Sunday at Thunderhill West, the smaller more technical 2 mile track. We ran it in both direction, ccw on Saturday and cw on Sunday without the infield. I started in intermediate to get a feel for the bike and try to learn the track, which was very tricky in the ccw direction as I'm used to just trying to hit every apex and that is not the right way around this track.

The R1 would power wheelie out of every corner and was both terrifying and super fun. I went through 5 gallons of gas in 2.5 sessions and almost ran out of gas on the track. Being able to pass everyone on any straightaway was really nice, and felt like a safer way to do track days. Once i moved up to advanced in the CW direction for Sunday, the benefits of the liter bike were even clearer, as I could still get by anyone pretty quickly. Also on Sunday got to talk to Dave Moss about the lines, and that helped me learn the other direction more quickly.

At the end of the weekend, I'd spent a lot more on gas than I was used to, but the rear tire still has one more day left in it. The traction control/quickshifter/autoblip seems to work just as well as it did on my 790, and I had no scary moments on the bike other than when I was running out of gas and blew through turn 1 because the bike was cutting out on the straight and it distracted me.

The R1 is an absolute weapon even on a completely stock setup. Seems to do everything well, can corner at absurd lean angles with great stability, trail brake, stoppie into turn 1, and power by anything even when you miss a downshift or two. You do catch up to traffic quickly, but you can also get by them in no time. Power band is very linear and forgiving, chassis is great!

Only negative is the increased speed leads to increased time braking which kind of beat me up, I need to be in much better shape to ride the bike fast. If you have the chance to pick one of this bikes up for the track, you should.

[ducatirdr]

Awesome report. Yes the wheelies on corner exit that you can steer are addictive with the wheelie control on. It stops the wheelie at 10-15 degrees and allows you the steer the bike upright. Also your rear tire life will drop as you get on the gas sooner and the slide control kicks in. You can let it control the slide on exit like a pro. It's so seamless in its intervention. The other side of acceleration is slowing all that speed down. Braking does take a lot out of you. I suggest setting yourself up for the corner prior to braking. You start to hang off the side of the bike and use your thigh of your outside the turn leg to brace on the tank instead of your balls. Then apply brakes and use that brace of your leg on the tank to help hold you in place and not just your arms and the squeeze of your legs. This helped me a ton with reducing braking loads on my body. Plus it made trail braking smoother not having to adjust myself at the corner entrance.

Enjoy that awesome track machine. One commute and you'll hate it LOL

[JettaJayGLS]

I'm almost a little sad to hear that review, but got that hunch when Paul made his comment about "having to learn electronics" to be competitive.

How good is the TC? Is it so good you just crack it wide open out of the corner and it sorts it self? Or can it still bite you?
Do current middleweights offer the same level of TC?

I understand how we got here, but it makes me a little sad about the future of club racing. Not cause I necessarily have anything against rider aids, but more so because rider aids will be necessary to win; aiming us towards paying-to-win.
In both cases, you need to learn and refine a skill. But if the current level of TC operates better than a highly skilled rider without TC, that bums me out a bit. Just a shift to the future, I suppose.

[Paul_E_D]

I'm almost a little sad to hear that review, but got that hunch when Paul made his comment about "having to learn electronics" to be competitive.

How good is the TC? Is it so good you just crack it wide open out of the corner and it sorts it self? Or can it still bite you?
Do current middleweights offer the same level of TC?

I understand how we got here, but it makes me a little sad about the future of club racing. Not cause I necessarily have anything against rider aids, but more so because rider aids will be necessary to win; aiming us towards paying-to-win.
In both cases, you need to learn and refine a skill. But if the current level of TC operates better than a highly skilled rider without TC, that bums me out a bit. Just a shift to the future, I suppose.

That's liter bike stuff. On middleweights it's a non factor. Not enough torque to really benefit. But make no mistake, you can still eff it up. Eric Wood highsided a few times this year and we all know his skill level.

Also, take this review as a single data point. It's an awesome bike, but I didn't find a stock r1 to be very rideable at all. Eric has told me he found the same on the zx10.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[tucktuvak]

How good is the TC? Is it so good you just crack it wide open out of the corner and it sorts it self? Or can it still bite you?
Do current middleweights offer the same level of TC?

I'm not sure how good it is, I only got to wide open throttle on the straights. The last bike I rode without traction control was an rc390 and this felt pretty similar in the amount of corner-exit sliding I was doing. I try to be pretty smooth about easing onto the throttle. I had no crashes this year on my 790, but others have ridden it on the same TC settings and crashed it right away...

Regarding the capabilities of a stock 2015+ R1, one of the guys there had just won an expert unlimited championship in Utah on his stock R1 vs motoamerica stock 1000 bikes.

Also I suppose my bike isn't 100% stock, it has 2021 stock suspension, a flash tune + catless exhaust, brake master cylinder, ABS delete, aftermarket brake pistons, and an autoblip. But I doubt that stuff makes much difference.

[JettaJayGLS]

I'm also curious towards what Eric W. would say it needs to be rideable. Edit: rereading above, I'm curious as to what you and Eric have to say they need to be rideable.

I am not doubting his abilities or judgement, I just want to do my best to understand how the experts see these things and hopefully learn from it.

[ducatirdr]

I'm here to say that the 15+ R1 is in another league with traction control that only late model BMW's and v4 Duc's can say that have the same seamless intervention. Sorry Kawi and Aprilia suck in comparison. I have tried them and they are not even close. I have done things on my 16 R1 that are purely insane that I only have the balls and not the skill to sample them. I will say that changes to the stock gearing did impact the smoothness or seamlessness of the intervention. Lower gearing had the TC feel more abrupt. But stock it was a game changer in riding. Not only that but on worn over heated tires it saves your bacon. I think it's a absolute blast. Yes it's tech and not skill but its freaking amazingly fun.

Do yourself a favor and watch this review at 6:30 https://youtu.be/6ImoDvnscjY I watched this and decided to test it out. Sure as SHIT it is amazing.

[Paul_E_D]

I'm also curious towards what Eric W. would say it needs to be rideable. Edit: rereading above, I'm curious as to what you and Eric have to say they need to be rideable.

I am not doubting his abilities or judgement, I just want to do my best to understand how the experts see these things and hopefully learn from it.

ECU tuning at a minimum.

[Woodcraft]

I'm also curious towards what Eric W. would say it needs to be rideable. Edit: rereading above, I'm curious as to what you and Eric have to say they need to be rideable.

I am not doubting his abilities or judgement, I just want to do my best to understand how the experts see these things and hopefully learn from it.

These bikes are all pretty good stock. I've ridden an R1 and it was good in stock trim for sure. My ZX10 all year had a stock engine, stock mapping and a Kit ECU - which basically just allowed for the OEM restrictions to be lifted. 1It made 187hp on pump gas with a slip-on, as I never even ran it on the dyno until last week (to get ready for Homestead). I'm having Bauce Racing build a supersport motor, which is nice at big tracks but will not make any difference at Loudon, NYST, Thompson or NJMP. With this build and MR12 it will make over 200. Lots of fun!

To be "rideable" to the point where you can comfortably (key word) run a fast Expert pace you basically need tires, a rear shock and a better steering damper. To win Expert races and be comfortable you need fork cartridges and good brake pads. With stock everything and good set of tires I'm guessing I might be 2-2.5 ish seconds off my present race pace, and that's mainly mental - the bike could probably do 1.5-2 seconds off. The rest is again just comfort, making it crash worthy and some bling. I hate OEM footpegs because I use my legs/feet so much that they slip off any stock peg I've ever used. I am also particular with my hand control setup so I have clipons on everything.

[Woodcraft]

That's liter bike stuff. On middleweights it's a non factor. Not enough torque to really benefit. But make no mistake, you can still eff it up. Eric Wood highsided a few times this year and we all know his skill level.

Also, take this review as a single data point. It's an awesome bike, but I didn't find a stock r1 to be very rideable at all. Eric has told me he found the same on the zx10.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

100% agree that on middleweights that TC a complete non factor. Turn that crap off unless it's raining - it just slows the bike down.

The stock ZX10 rear shock sucks when you push it and becomes a limiting factor.

As for my 2021 ZX10, yes, it did flick me off twice this year. Once I simply lost my mind and 100% deserved it. No TC would have saved me in that instance. The other one I felt that it should have done more to help. My mistake was not practicing on Friday and trying to get up to speed too quickly. I treated it like my 2016-2019 ZX10's, which honestly have better stock TC settings than the 2021 and I could just smash the throttle open as soon as I take bar pressure off exiting turn 2. Again - my fault but I feel that if I'd been riding my 19 I would not have crashed in that instance, I've never had a ZX10 do that at such a low lean angle (maybe 30 degrees on that one). Serves me right for trying to be up to full pace on my third lap (some lessons you have to be "reminded" of time and again), but we did tune it in to be better later in the year after that.

[Paul_E_D]

Thanks for chiming in Eric, I didn't want to put words in your mouth. I just remembered talking with you about on/off throttle response in stock form making it tricky to get the bike of the corner on the intended line. These bikes have so much torque and drive that if it's not perfectly predictable it can be unsettling to say the least. The R1s I have sampled both had issues with on/off throttle response. They were pretty amazing everywhere else though.

[JettaJayGLS]

Thanks for the responses. Eric, really cool to see you're still on here, definitely wasn't expecting that!

I don't really have any interest in a heavyweight, my heart will stay with middleweights and smol bikes, so glad to hear it is a none issue as I have enough to focus on without TC.

But what really grabbed my interest here came from years of watching MotoGP with a very keen eye. And the fact they're on "basic" Magneti Marelli software. I was/am curious if the latest spec of superbikes were as advanced. Especially after seeing Paul's comment on needing to know how to tune the software in order to win.

From watching so much motoGP, my brain has established that it is definitely not all in the software, but how the rider works with it to get the most out of it. The teams with a team of data engineers definitely have the advantage to get the most out of the software, but the riders like Fabio have some secret sauce on weight/body distribution to extract that extra, tiny bit. So being an alien isn't as much about the wrist, but you're entire body. This is still very cool to me, I just didn't know how much of this trickles down to superbikes.

[feralchimp]

Just came to say I'm impressed that anyone ever makes it to Expert, let alone to the point where it seems reasonable to ride an R1 at pace. Keep knocking down those goals, bruh.