The Triumph website boys are ridiculous.

[KingCast 650R]

Triumph Torque and Triumphrat have both given me the boot because I dare to say that Triumph may be liable for producing defective crankshafts. My basis for this?

Do some Googling for broken or shattered crankshafts and see what you find.

Not to mention that a former service director personally wrote me and said the factory told him some of them were not heat-treated properly. So that's obviously hearsay but it is enough for a Court to order production of documents in the discovery phase, you can't get any better than that going into a lawsuit unless you have a smoking gun like an internal memorandum in hand from a mole, right. So I am going to sue for failure to recall and I don't give a damn that my bike is a 2002, we will see where it ends up.

http://www.wepapers.com/Papers/13402...heat_treatment

Now the rub comes in because others have agreed with me before my crankshaft shattered yet none of these people got booted, and many of these people have admitted they hate lawyers even though I don't practice anymore and am one of the most anti-lawyer guys you will find. I just got the degree for the knowledge and to help little people.

So they say good riddance to bad rubbish and I say the same, but jeezlouise how protective of a marque and how ridiculous. I have plenty of GOOD THINGS to say about Triumph as well but they ignore all of that, what a bunch of twits. This is the better video:
YouTube - Triumph Sprint ST Shattered Crank failure

[AimlessMoto]

I have a 01' Tiger 955i... the SAME motor as the Sprint... (yes, the same... look it up).... and I have not heard any issues about the 955i running into crank failure.

I think it's a specific year/batch of crankshafts... not ALL of them in the RS/ST bikes.

It's also probably because people ride the sprint harder than the Tiger because it's more sport/tourer than adventure/tourer that parts are more prone to fail.

Either way... a CRANKSHAFT failure should not be tolerated by ANY manufacturer and should be recalled.

I fully back your argument... they shouldn't have kicked you out.

[caddydaddy]

Your linked document needs some work. It starts off talking about faulty crankshafts, then in 7 & 8 talks about camshafts being what the connecting rods are hooked to!?

[KingCast 650R]

YET AGAIN... another video that has 90% NOTHING to do with the post you're talking about.

I have a 01' Tiger 955i... the SAME motor as the Sprint... (yes, the same... look it up).... and I have not heard any issues about the 955i running into crank failure.

I think it's a specific year/batch of crankshafts... not ALL of them in the RS/ST bikes.

It's also probably because people ride the sprint harder than the Tiger because it's more sport/tourer than adventure/tourer that parts are more prone to fail.

Either way... a CRANKSHAFT failure should not be tolerated by ANY manufacturer and should be recalled.

I fully back your argument... they shouldn't have kicked you out.

Whoops, wrong video made the change.
It is almost exclusively Sprint RS and ST and only seen one or two Daytonas so it can't be how hard you ride, simply a matter of which bikes got the bad cranks..... a very specific anomaly waiting for specific sequence of events, i.e.

1. bad crank
2. weak battery
3. backfire on compression

BLAM!

See ya for a ride sometime, love my Triumph. Headed over to Riverside now to discuss the correct chain slack with SSSA 27-37 on the sidestand is what I am seeing. Also need to pick up the adjustment tool.

[KingCast 650R]

Your linked document needs some work. It starts off talking about faulty crankshafts, then in 7 & 8 talks about camshafts being what the connecting rods are hooked to!?

Yah that's a typo, no worries.... I was running on 3 days with damn near no sleep

And don't get me wrong, I love my bike and I love the fact that Triumph made it through all of its adversity.

[caddydaddy]

Not sure if you still read the TriumphRAT forums, but a guy in England with an '03 Sprint recently had a crank failure:

Reading through the thread I think I am the only one with a 2003 bike all the rest appear to be 2002.. But this is only the year it was registered not the year it was built... Looking at my engine number, it appears mine was built before the 2002 models mentioned in the thread..
my engine no is 143664 if the helps.

He said yesterday that Triumph was giving him a new crankshaft! Have they offered that for you?

[KingCast 650R]

Not sure if you still read the TriumphRAT forums, but a guy in England with an '03 Sprint recently had a crank failure:

He said yesterday that Triumph was giving him a new crankshaft! Have they offered that for you?

I know. Triumphtorque guy Frank, who is pretty cool, posted it over there.
He wrote me he's an engineer.

Peter never told me free, he said "discounted" and when I pushed him to ask he never clarified affirmatively that it was free. Then when you add the labor it's much more than labor to replace a crank, and what if god forbid something else went wrong when it happened, so I sourced another engine. This will be litigated in due time.
From Triumphrat:
Hoody Tea:
The known Triumph RAT thread engine numbers where the cranks failed were 144602 and 144317 - close enough to suggest a limited batch failure. Really though, a few more engine numbers of failed cranks would be useful for a definitive answer.

My engine number is 158378 - nearly 14,000 away, and it's fine, albeit with a low mileage.

I wonder if the fire at Hinckley around this time has any relevance? - production in some chaos etc.

My 02 Sprint broke the crank last year. 155884 in case anyone is interested.

---Charlie

Mine reads S2150323 so is that 150323 right in the middle, ahem.

[caddydaddy]

Peter never told me free, he said "discounted" and when I pushed him to ask he never clarified affirmatively that it was free. Then when you add the labor it's much more than labor to replace a crank, and what if god forbid something else went wrong when it happened, so I sourced another engine. This will be litigated in due time.

If they are at least giving you a free or discounted crankshaft on a 9 year old bike, then what's the problem?
And yes, there's always a chance of damaging an engine when you open it up, to replace a part like a crankshaft, but any new damage would be done by the dealer, thus they should be the one to repair any damages!

I don't see this being handled much differently by any other company. Hell, if the crank snapped in my car, I doubt the manufacturer would do much more than offer a discount on the repair. In fact, that's what happened with my Moms car that was 1 year out of the warranty!
I'd take Triumphs offer of a discounted crankshaft, ask for free or discounted labor, get the bike fixed and enjoy it! You said you sourced another engine, so I guess it's on you to fix the bike then. There's nothing Triumph can do if you fix it yourself.

[KingCast 650R]

If they are at least giving you a free or discounted crankshaft on a 9 year old bike, then what's the problem?
And yes, there's always a chance of damaging an engine when you open it up, to replace a part like a crankshaft, but any new damage would be done by the dealer, thus they should be the one to repair any damages!

I don't see this being handled much differently by any other company. Hell, if the crank snapped in my car, I doubt the manufacturer would do much more than offer a discount on the repair. In fact, that's what happened with my Moms car that was 1 year out of the warranty!
I'd take Triumphs offer of a discounted crankshaft, ask for free or discounted labor, get the bike fixed and enjoy it! You said you sourced another engine, so I guess it's on you to fix the bike then. There's nothing Triumph can do if you fix it yourself.

Ahhh, there is much more to this.

1. I already fixed the bike, mate.
2. They did not offer me the same deal others with less repair history got, i.e. free crank.
3. They refused any labor cap or offer on labor.
4. If the dealer opened the engine and found damage caused by the crank failure that's on ME.
5. I'm going after a Court Order finding that a recall of the effected models should have occurred, (i.e. "Failure to Recall") and that comment about the faulty heat treatments from a Triumph employee becomes essential in that endeavor. That is prolly one reason some of them hate on me for raising it, but shit man why should I take one for the team when the team should have called a better play in the first place?

6. I offered to settle the whole damn thing for $500 and Peter responded with best regards and if your mechanic needs any help with the engine he can call Triumph, well shit man you know Chris over at Boston Motorsports doesn't need any damn help he's got his shit together, mate I'm all sorted.

I hope that clarifies things......

Oh there is one other unrelated thing I think I need to have my exhaust repacked, do you know folks who do that? I have the undertail Powermax. I will check with Chris tomorrow when I take her in for an oil change as well!

[wesvailco]

-LOL.

[KingCast 650R]

-LOL.

[caddydaddy]

Ahhh, there is much more to this.

1. I already fixed the bike, mate.

Before or after you called Triumph?

4. If the dealer opened the engine and found damage caused by the crank failure that's on ME.

Well, yeah, that will happen with any vehicle that is not under warranty! If you don't want that problem, buy a bike under warranty.

5. I'm going after a Court Order finding that a recall of the effected models should have occurred, (i.e. "Failure to Recall") and that comment about the faulty heat treatments from a Triumph employee becomes essential in that endeavor. That is prolly one reason some of them hate on me for raising it, but shit man why should I take one for the team when the team should have called a better play in the first place?

Are these failures recent, ie, they're occurring years after the engines are built?

6. I offered to settle the whole damn thing for $500 and Peter responded with best regards...

I doubt ANY company would just throw money at you! It'll be either reduced or free labor or parts.

[Kurlon]

9 years old and it tossed a crank?

Yeah, I think you're past the point where you can clamor for a recall. If there weren't enough failures during the warranty period even if the cranks were 'flawed' they survived long enough.

I'll also note I've seen that exact failure mode, and it had nothing to do with heat treatment of the cranks involved.

[KingCast 650R]

Before or after you called Triumph?

Well, yeah, that will happen with any vehicle that is not under warranty! If you don't want that problem, buy a bike under warranty.

Are these failures recent, ie, they're occurring years after the engines are built?

I doubt ANY company would just throw money at you! It'll be either reduced or free labor or parts.

The failures have been occurring since 2003 mate.

The warranty is an implied warranty of merchantability.

And don't forget the issues is one of fraudulent or willful concealment. By what they guy told me they knew about it and should have recalled the effected series, that's all I'm saying. The fact that it only occurs under ideally bad situations doesn't mean that there is not a defect.

Still love my bike, had her out today!

PS: I didn't have to be money, could have even been a damn Triumph jacket even the damn cloth one with the Triumph checkerboard on it, what's that $300 for Pete's sake, that's a win win, free advertising.

[KingCast 650R]

9 years old and it tossed a crank?

Yeah, I think you're past the point where you can clamor for a recall. If there weren't enough failures during the warranty period even if the cranks were 'flawed' they survived long enough.

I'll also note I've seen that exact failure mode, and it had nothing to do with heat treatment of the cranks involved.

Well the point is that vertical privity is not necessary in MA. If there are grounds to believe that the company knew of the defects that the guy told me about then the Order could issue. Either way I want to know what Triumph knew and what they did.... and didn't.... do about it.

PS: What bikes were involved in your observations?

[caddydaddy]

The warranty is an implied warranty of merchantability.

And don't forget the issues is one of fraudulent or willful concealment. By what they guy told me they knew about it and should have recalled the effected series, that's all I'm saying. The fact that it only occurs under ideally bad situations doesn't mean that there is not a defect.

Well good luck with it! I guess it'll all depend on what documents of this problem could be dug up. If I see a class action lawsuit against Triumph, I guess I know who started it!

[KingCast 650R]

Well good luck with it! I guess it'll all depend on what documents of this problem could be dug up. If I see a class action lawsuit against Triumph, I guess I know who started it!

It will be interesting, not my first priority but definitely a priority. What would it really have taken to make an offer of apparel or something that would really cushion the blow for what is arguably a design defect still hurting many people. I just got an email today from another guy it happened to, sheesh... they should have addressed this more definitively a long time ago.

Still love my bike

[Kurlon]

Well the point is that vertical privity is not necessary in MA. If there are grounds to believe that the company knew of the defects that the guy told me about then the Order could issue. Either way I want to know what Triumph knew and what they did.... and didn't.... do about it.

PS: What bikes were involved in your observations?

The failure rate has to be there also. Someone can call a part 'defective' but if the failure rate is low enough it did the job. Case in point, neither the fork brace or cams/etc on Honda V65s were ever recalled... and there was much more news/attention put on them. The overall failure rates weren't high enough. This is the first I'm hearing of 'crank issues' on this series Triumph, I can't believe the numbers are there to justify a recall.

The bikes I and others were trashing cranks on were pitbikes. They'd snap off the flywheel side crank arm, right at the cam chain sprocket when we were roadracing them. At first we attributed it to shit chinese metal, but then I blew out Honda cranks the same way. Another theory was the flywheel weight, but again I'd snap them with IRKs or full weight units. We'd loose cranks on near stock low output builds and monster builds, so it wasn't the output.

We eventually narrowed it down to sustained WFO operation with sustained valve float. That'd set up a whipping action on the flywheel side crank arm which would fatigue the crank. When it'd finally let go you'd see the same break pattern shown in your pics. An outer ring that looks 'crystalized' and the inner would look twisted/sheered off like it was a play-doh snake you ripped apart by hand. Checking the hardness of various failed cranks showed a huge range, cryo-treating didn't help. To keep the cranks alive we had to adapt our builds to peak out at lower revs where we could better keep the valves in check. Switching from screamers to torquers solved the problem nicely with no change in cranks. These same motors would get the snot beat out of them in MX and never flinch, sustain that valve float on a road course though and you'd just be lighting the fuse.

[caddydaddy]

This is the first I'm hearing of 'crank issues' on this series Triumph, I can't believe the numbers are there to justify a recall.

That's a good point! And another to consider is that on an internet forum, people come to complain about a problem, not say that everything is OK! So you're really only hearing from the people who had this problem, while others remain silent. Just something to think about!
KingCast 650R, how many failures do you know of vs. how many thousands of engines were made in those years?

[KB]

Is this for real? Wait till this one is read on monday morning. Sit back and watch the shit show!


KB

[cdseven95]

I did not read the thread but it sounds like alot of clutch riding is going on in that video..

[KingCast 650R]

I did not read the thread but it sounds like alot of clutch riding is going on in that video..

Nah just a tad trying to let the revs up so you could hear the engine. I'm not a clutch rider.

[KingCast 650R]

That's a good point! And another to consider is that on an internet forum, people come to complain about a problem, not say that everything is OK! So you're really only hearing from the people who had this problem, while others remain silent. Just something to think about!
KingCast 650R, how many failures do you know of vs. how many thousands of engines were made in those years?

And then too is the fact that not everyone who has it occur necessarily makes it to the Internet, either.

Of course the failure rate is probably low relative to total units produced. Main thing is whether the company knew of a defect yet kept on pushing and not informing the public. It takes an unfortunate combination between the type of sprag clutch, low battery and perhaps the weakened crank.

Meanwhile the numbers may be relatively low, but just try to find a modern motorcycle with the problem anywhere on the Internet. You won't.

Of course the main point of the thread is that I didn't deserve to be kicked off the boards, especially when it happened at Triumph Torque after someone ELSE posted about it, I had seized (pun fully intended) any discussion on it

[KingCast 650R]

Checking the hardness of various failed cranks showed a huge range, cryo-treating didn't help. To keep the cranks alive we had to adapt our builds to peak out at lower revs where we could better keep the valves in check. Switching from screamers to torquers solved the problem nicely with no change in cranks. These same motors would get the snot beat out of them in MX and never flinch, sustain that valve float on a road course though and you'd just be lighting the fuse.

Yep that valve float is a killer. I watched in on a special camera once and it's scary all around.

Anyway like I say I doubt it is any of that because the Sprint likely is ridden least hard compared to a Daytona or an S3..... no, there was something a little special in the water that does not compute, and I would love to really know what it is whether I win on the merits or not.

[Kurlon]

Meanwhile the numbers may be relatively low, but just try to find a modern motorcycle with the problem anywhere on the Internet. You won't.

Instead you'll find they all have their own quirks, weak points and issues. It's only a defect if it affects statistically more machines than you'd expect to randomly fail normally in that manor. If a batch of cranks didn't get hardened to the desired spec but still survive as much as originally planned... it's not a defect it's a production variation.