Moriwaki MD250H

[xxaarraa]

I saw this yesterday, and instantly fell in love. I am a sucker for the exotic, but this one is more intriguing than most.



I was looking at it and thinking "it looks eerily similar to an RS125" and sure enough, I looked it up and the Moriwaki "MD250H" seems to be a bastard child of an RS125 rolling stock and a Honda 250 motor.

I have a few questions to which I hope all your answers are "the bike sucks, don't ask questions, move on"

• An RS125 frame with a reliable Honda 4 stroke motor sounds like the perfect recipe. Why don't we see more of these then? Particularly at Loudon.
• If I blow the motor (I have had a run of blowing motors recently), would any 250 Honda motor slot in as replacement? I know the motor in the bike is a hopped up race version of the 250, but could I just drop a factory crate motor from say a CBR250 or 250X and be good to go? It's carbed so I assume there are no ECU maps to worry about. I am curious if all the other components will still plug in.

[Paul_E_D]

I'm racing one next weekend in the Big Fish endurance race. I raced it last year too. I have a lot of RS 125 experience and here are my thoughts:

Moriwaki has IMPROVED the incredible 125 chassis. THe bracing they have added to the frame and especially the swinger make it the best handling bike I have ever ridden by a looooong margin.

The Honda CRF250X motor is a dog though. It's about half as exciting as a 125. Slower than an R3 or RC390. You have to ride this bike INCREDIBLY hard to go fast. Luckily the Chassis is up to it. In fact, the chassis just wants more. I think a ktm 450 motor might make this the most entertaining bike on the planet.

[isaac_]

I absolutely love these little things. But I could not find one when I was looking. Hence, an RC.


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[xxaarraa]

I'm racing one next weekend in the Big Fish endurance race. I raced it last year too. I have a lot of RS 125 experience and here are my thoughts:

Moriwaki has IMPROVED the incredible 125 chassis. THe bracing they have added to the frame and especially the swinger make it the best handling bike I have ever ridden by a looooong margin.

The Honda CRF250X motor is a dog though. It's about half as exciting as a 125. Slower than an R3 or RC390. You have to ride this bike INCREDIBLY hard to go fast. Luckily the Chassis is up to it. In fact, the chassis just wants more. I think a ktm 450 motor might make this the most entertaining bike on the planet.

Wow nice. How long have you had it? What's the full ownership experience like? Are all the major parts for the engine readily available? I know RS125 suspension and wheels are still relatively easily available on eBay. How difficult are they to live with?

I don't get it. If they are not hard to live with, you'd see more of them around? I know they are rare /low volume, but that can't be the only reason you don't see them?

[theducman]

Because they are $12k perhaps

[isaac_]

And the US culture has an aversion towards small bikes


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[xxaarraa]

Because they are $12k perhaps

Not really. That bike in that photo I posted was $6k. It is mint.

[theducman]

Cost of a set up 600. It's cool but not worth the coin just my .02

[Chippertheripper]

paul, your posts on such bikes should come with the reminder that you're physically suited for those machines. XXXXXXAra, I don't know what your height and weight is at (and more importantly, how flexible you are), but you should consider that too.

[Paul_E_D]

Anyone can fit. They sell bigboy seats and rearsets. I don't own one, but the biggest reason i see for NOT owning is the part about being slow.

To go fast on these you have to ride incredibly hard. Like lay it on the line hard in every corner without letting up.

This is why they are great for learning to go fast. But that level of commitment takes time to develop. Americans are lazy.

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[Paul_E_D]

As far as costs, not bad. Similar to running a motard. Tires are cheaper, and they crash better than just about anything out there. If you start looking for power, then things might get crazy.

[Kurlon]

We need to sit you and Jake Vader down at a dinner table and let you guys talk. If we can get Shawn Spear involved, he can provide insight on the production Honda Moto3'esque machine they sell that replaced the RS125. Remind me to arrange this at the Classic if you're coming.

[number9]

I don't get it. If they are not hard to live with, you'd see more of them around? I know they are rare /low volume, but that can't be the only reason you don't see them?

...which is also why I don't understand why there aren't more Aprilia RS250s.

[Kurlon]

...which is also why I don't understand why there aren't more Aprilia RS250s.

That one is easy, there isn't a class they slot into where they are competitive. In LW they get slaughtered by race 250s being both heavy and underpowered in comparison.

[xxaarraa]

As far as costs, not bad. Similar to running a motard. Tires are cheaper, and they crash better than just about anything out there. If you start looking for power, then things might get crazy.

Good to know, thanks. The MD250h makes 45 ish HP? Why isn't that fast enough for the ULW class? Don't the new KTMs, Ninja 300s, etc make less?

...which is also why I don't understand why there aren't more Aprilia RS250s.

RS250s aren't that easy to live with. Most of the engine parts like cases, cranks, etc. are available, but not abundant. And out of the UK and not very cheap. And while I haven't crashed one, the damn thing doesn't look like it would crash well at all. The oil tank is right under the skin on the right side, coolant is right under the left side of the fairing. Aprilia did such a poor job with the RSV4 too in that regard (crash worthiness), the demand sensor is right under the fairing and is actually held in place by the same bolt that holds the left fairing in place. Even if you just drop the bike in the parking lot standing still, you will fuck up the demand sensor (AMHIK).

That one is easy, there isn't a class they slot into where they are competitive. In LW they get slaughtered by race 250s being both heavy and underpowered in comparison.

I won't argue with Kurlon's knowledge of classes, but I find it hard to believe that a bike that makes 65-70 horsepower and weighs 300 lbs can be "underpowered and heavy" when going against other 4 strokes of the same size. I get the razor thin two stroke power band thing, but in the hands of a good racer who can keep it wound up, I would think the RS250 would be very competitive?

I thought the reason you don't see them anymore on the race scene is because the herd is thinning for bikes and spares, and more importantly, the bikes are getting locked up in the hands of people who want to save an iconic design (I'm one of the knuckle heads guilty of this so I will admit it). I grew up in the 90s and the only bike I would have put on my bedroom wall was the RS250. The RS250 to me is what the 916 is to the guys a generation ahead of me.

[Paul_E_D]

I would be stunned to see a Moriwaki putting down 45HP. 32-35 at the wheel is more realistic. A 390 has 140ccs on it! and the R3 is a twin. They both can easily put down 42 at the wheel in stockish trim. In terms of motor, the moriwaki is going to need a lot of work to compete. I always felt moto3 should have been 350cc singles. especially at the customer level. A 250 single is just always going to be a dog. Shawn Spear just bought the actual Honda customer moto3 bike thinking it would be faster than the moriwaki. Nope.

[Kurlon]

I won't argue with Kurlon's knowledge of classes, but I find it hard to believe that a bike that makes 65-70 horsepower and weighs 300 lbs can be "underpowered and heavy" when going against other 4 strokes of the same size. I get the razor thin two stroke power band thing, but in the hands of a good racer who can keep it wound up, I would think the RS250 would be very competitive?

In LW (depending on tier, SS, SB or GP) you can have SVs around the 320lb mark dropping 90hp. Ducati's dropping 115hp (dunno weight numbers) or real 250 two stroke GP machines that are closer to 200lbs and dropping 100hp or more, if not 120hp. (I don't recall who but at one point there was a guy tossing his 250 GP machine into The Dash and putting up a good fight.) And let's not forget the 'R5' threat in LWGP. The street RS250 just isn't in the same league. Being a street machine, it IS legal for ULSB and would stand a better chance there but at NHMS you'd still have an uphill battle vs stock displacement superbike SVs again dropping 80 plus but with a MUCH wider torque spread.

Edit: I'm the last person to say anything about running something that isn't obviously competitive for a class, but having been on the wrong machine before I want to make sure you're going in with both eyes open if treading down that path.

[xxaarraa]

I would be stunned to see a Moriwaki putting down 45HP. 32-35 at the wheel is more realistic. A 390 has 140ccs on it! and the R3 is a twin. They both can easily put down 42 at the wheel in stockish trim. In terms of motor, the moriwaki is going to need a lot of work to compete. I always felt moto3 should have been 350cc singles. especially at the customer level. A 250 single is just always going to be a dog. Shawn Spear just bought the actual Honda customer moto3 bike thinking it would be faster than the moriwaki. Nope.

OK I see. The guy who owned that Moriwaki may have been rather optimistic with the HP numbers then. I'd still ride one of those over an R3 or Ninja or whatever generic microwave oven in that class, but it now makes sense why you shouldn't.

In LW (depending on tier, SS, SB or GP) you can have SVs around the 320lb mark dropping 90hp. Ducati's dropping 115hp (dunno weight numbers) or real 250 two stroke GP machines that are closer to 200lbs and dropping 100hp or more, if not 120hp. (I don't recall who but at one point there was a guy tossing his 250 GP machine into The Dash and putting up a good fight.) And let's not forget the 'R5' threat in LWGP. The street RS250 just isn't in the same league. Being a street machine, it IS legal for ULSB and would stand a better chance there but at NHMS you'd still have an uphill battle vs stock displacement superbike SVs again dropping 80 plus but with a MUCH wider torque spread.

Edit: I'm the last person to say anything about running something that isn't obviously competitive for a class, but having been on the wrong machine before I want to make sure you're going in with both eyes open if treading down that path.

The damn SVs make 90 hp? Shows you how little I know about them. Yes, I'd take a 4 stroke 90 hp over a 2 stroke 60 hp. In fact, I'd take the 115 hp aircooled desmo over all hmm...........................

[csmutty]

OK I see. The guy who owned that Moriwaki may have been rather optimistic with the HP numbers then. I'd still ride one of those over an R3 or Ninja or whatever generic microwave oven in that class, but it now makes sense why you shouldn't.



The damn SVs make 90 hp? Shows you how little I know about them. Yes, I'd take a 4 stroke 90 hp over a 2 stroke 60 hp. In fact, I'd take the 115 hp aircooled desmo over all hmm...........................

90 hp svs are far from stock...

[Paul_E_D]

90 hp svs are far from stock...

And far from reliable. All these numbers seem over the top optimistic to me. Just take what anyone tells you and cut it by 10-15 HP and you have an idea what's up.

[scottieducati]

And far from reliable. All these numbers seem over the top optimistic to me. Just take what anyone tells you and cut it by 10-15 HP and you have an idea what's up.

Depends on who owns it I s'pose, Rick Doucette's SBK SV is rumored to be near or over 100 HP. You can get a Hawk to 68-70 pretty easily. I'd agree that the "typical" SV SBK is around mid-70's to low 80's though.... but for sure, you can get more.

[isaac_]

Other thing is people quoting STD vs SAE# for HP.


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[csmutty]

Depends on who owns it I s'pose, Rick Doucette's SBK SV is rumored to be near or over 100 HP. You can get a Hawk to 68-70 pretty easily. I'd agree that the "typical" SV SBK is around mid-70's to low 80's though.... but for sure, you can get more.

In order to make a 90hp sv reliable you either have a lot of knowledge and time or a lot of $$.

[nhbubba]

Doesn't Doucette "pop" motors all the time?

[snwbrdr435]

Doesn't Doucette "pop" motors all the time?

I've seen him have a few failures but I havent been to the track in ages